27 September 2008

Proportionate Reasons

I'd like to share a quote by Archbishop Chaput of Denver. He is talking about what a proportionate reason could be to justify voting for a pro-choice candidate.

"What is a ‘proportionate’ reason when it comes to the abortion issue? It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life–which we most certainly will. If we’re confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed."

Wow... that's something to think about. If you plan on voting for Obama, what will your excuse be if you were to meet a victim of abortion in the next life?


Blogger Anthony M Piferrer said...

The excuse: "I evaluated my priorities and figured that, since I've never seen you and you're not even really alive yet, much less perhaps even human at all, that it would be ok to favor my own selfish interests, political agenda, and desire for true social justice. Because I figured it'd be better to have the right to have sex at will without concern for the consequences and to live a 'free' life than to even give you a chance at one.

And besides, it is so unjust that we went to war without proper cause. So many people have been killed, even though they've already had a chance at life and have experienced it. Why should we bother giving you a chance since it is so miserable anyway?

If you were born, it would've burdened the miserable poor. I did it out of compassion for them, because you would've made their horrible lives even worse. They wouldn't have been able to pay their mortgages for having to pay for you. You would have had a bad life anyways. No reason to put you through that.

And imagine how much better our country would be with all of the great, new changes promised. Our civilization would advance so much, all we had to do was keep you out. It was our project and you would've interfered."

God forbid we give a weak human being a chance to make a real difference. To savor life for all of its ups and downs, however difficult it may be. That would be a crime...

September 27, 2008 11:34 PM  
Blogger Daniel said...

Until (and unless) Obama's opponent comes out with a proposal to reduce or outlaw abortions outright, your evaluation is a flawed one.

September 27, 2008 11:39 PM  
Blogger Jonathan Knox said...

I'm sorry, maybe you didn't read the whole thing. This is not my evaluation. This is His Excellency Charles Chaput's evaluation.

McCain has said he will appoint judges who will not legislate from the bench. That's in the context of Roe v Wade. He believes it should be overturned.

Obama, on the other hand, wants to sign into law the Freedom of Choice Act. This law would erase every pro-life gain made, getting rid of all abortion restrictions. Look at his address to Planned Parenthood. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf0XIRZSTt8

For the love of Saint Peter! Stop proffering ridiculous excuses for voting for a man who supports the murder of innocents. Jesus have mercy.

September 28, 2008 12:15 AM  
Blogger Daniel said...

I've volunteered hundreds of hours, worked on dozens of campaigns, talked to thousands of people, and raised tens of thousands of dollars for the right to life movement over the past two years. I could be wrong (but I doubt it) when I say that I am more knowledgeable and a stronger advocate of the right to life movement than you are. So please don't be offended when I ask you to get off your moral high horse.

Obama advocates evil policies, but so does his opponent. Obama promises to maintain the status quo with regard to abortion, and his opponent advocates a discredited gimmick of deference to states' sovereignty. Obviously neither approach is going to stop abortions.

But if as a U.S. Senator, John McCain was convinced that a federalist approach would be effective, and if he felt convinced of the urgency to end the abortion holocaust, then why hasn't he exercised the power he already has to stop it? Why should we expect him to behave any different if we put him in a position of even more power? If as U.S. Senator, John McCain wants to overturn Roe v. Wade, he has the constitutional authority to remove the federal courts' appellate jurisdiction over the subject matter of abortion. But McCain has opposed those measures throughout his career. On the other hand, he recently supported legislation that would remove the court's ability to hear petitions for habeas corpus from detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. It's not that McCain doesn't believe in exercising the power, it's that he doesn't believe in exercising it to reverse the courts' abortion rulings

When running for president in 2000 McCain said that he did not believe in overturning Roe v. Wade, said it would be irresponsible. He's since fought for federal funding to destroy human embryos under the pretext of scientific research. He's also one of the U.S. Senate's most vocal advocates for unjust wars around the world. Hardly a pro-life advocate.

If you're planning on voting for either of the two-party candidates, I hope you have a good excuse. Like the Archbishop said, you are going to have to answer to the victims of your candidates' ideology. As Catholics, we cannot support or ignore immoral social policy just because we happen to prefer the person advocating them. I don't know about you, but I don't look to the DNC or RNC for moral guidance. Don't be a lazy Catholic. Think for yourself (that's why God gave you brains) and scrutinize both candidates' positions and then determine which one is more in line with Catholic teaching. If you think that's easy to do, I'd suggest you either don't know very much about the candidates or you don't know very much about the Church's teachings.

By the way, I still haven't offered any excuses (much less ridiculous ones) for voting for any candidate. I don't know where you got that impression.

*whew* that was long

September 28, 2008 6:50 PM  
Blogger Jonathan Knox said...

I presented the words of a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church you just joined a few months ago. Now I don't know how well you were catechized and formed in the Faith, but this archbishop is totally in line with what the Church as a whole says.

As for the moral high horse bit- saying things like "I could be wrong (but I doubt it) when I say that I am more knowledgeable and a stronger advocate of the right to life movement than you are" smacks not only of moral high horseism, but also of arrogance in general and ignorance as well.

First, you are incorrect in saying that Obama will maintain the status quo re: abortion. He wants more abortions, no matter what he says. He wants FOCA, which will mean less restrictions = more abortions.

Second, the war in Iraq is not on the same level as abortion. The former is not about the intentional killing of innocent lives. The latter is only about that. The death penalty is not about killing innocents, abortion is. Four thousand a day killed is more serious than a war where we are already looking at pulling out.

A McCain victory is essential to the pro-life movement. Not because we love McCain. I can go on and on why I personally don't like McCain's policies. It is essential because the other option (Ron Paul or Alan Keyes are not going to be written in to victory...) is Obama, who by his support of abortion on demand automatically makes him an evil choice.

September 28, 2008 10:23 PM  
Blogger carderock said...

Archbishop Chaput: "You are going to have to answer to the victims of your candidates' ideology."

Really? What about the basic teaching since I was a child that God gave you free will and intellect: that is what forms your choices and your conscience. No one else can make your choices or form your conscience, because God gave these to you inherently as a human being. When choice commits murder, whether war or abortion, street crime or hate, then this Archbishop is saying: we must face all the victims of murder to be held accountable for why we did nothing to stop the crime? What? When the mind police talk about "facing", they are blaming you and me and everyone for collectively aiding and abetting murder. Without feeding the poor, without passing laws (like Biden tried to) to protect brutality against women, without lifting a hand to house the homeless, without taking care of unwed mothers (like Palin voted against aid to unwed mothes in Alaska)--it seems that you and I are exonerated from our REAL sins simply by voting for the scoundrel who claims he is "against abortion".

What you are doing is falling for a sales pitch, a piece of propaganda that Hitler used to get elected as Chancellor of Germany. That's right. Hitler was elected. Hitler used the blame technique against the Jews, just as McCain fundamentalist drones are emailing racial comments throughout the Internet.

I see: Collectively you “will be held accountable for your vote” on judgment day? I am accountable NOW for my vote to protect and defend American lives NOW. I must seize the day of all the intelligence and reason that the Holy Spirit gives to me to protect and defend Americans by my vote.

The abortion laws on the books now make anyone in office that takes the oath of the President vow to "protect and defend the laws of the United States". That means that they must execute these laws, and defend them. It is moot to think there is even a "Pro-Life" candidate. You are "lost in the sauce" of theological blame and reasoning. Have you read Chris Hedges book about the Fundamentalists taking over power through land and oil domination? There's a song the Hawaiians sang about when the Mormons took their lands: "when we bowed our heads to pray, and then looked up, our lands were gone."

When you find that McCain and Palin will expand America into global “oil wars”, using nuclear power to “defend American Interests”, will you stop them? Republicans like Palin have angled to take your public lands and seashores that belong to the American people and sell them off to the highest bidder so they can sell them back to you at high dollar OPEC prices. This is called global domination of oil prices. It is the root cause of war and genocide in the world. Your National Treasures that FDR thought he protected are about to be stolen from you in DRILL BABY DRILL.

Do you want a REAL solution to abortion instead of voting for a sham “Pro-Life” candidate? America could drill our own oil. That would put an end to oil wars, lower the price of oil and gas, promote our economy to recover and pay for National Health Care and Social Security. We could have a Pro-Life Economy that responds to stopping the crime of abortion before it begins! We could attract manufacturing back into America and have near full employment. Not with McCain or Palin who have vested interests in BIG OIL!

Catholics decry the sin of abortion, but do nothing to stop abortion’s root causes—the loss of family life and a strong economy. That is our collective sin. It’s easier to blame the mother, the father, and now you and me. Shame on you, Archbishop Chaput, for using this old sales technique on American Catholics so that we will buy your Republican product. I’m not buying it.

Global domination by BIG OIL INTERESTS, including sacrificing American lives in oil wars, the Republicans created in the Bush Whitehouse. We didn’t impeach Bush, so are we going to face 4,000 dead Americans on Judgment Day? Bush passed the torch to "old Caesar McCain" riding on his warhorse to control oil for the Evil Empire of Oil. Forgive me for being so hard on you: I worked for 13 oil companies in the Middle East. They will do anything to control oil globally, and hence we have the War in Iraq.

Abortion in a failing economy will continue to grow, not because Obama or McCain are elected. Do you honestly think that women are “choosing” abortion? They feel they have no choice in the matter: it is a matter of economic survival for many women to keep working and they cannot go to “full term” even with an adoption. The bitter pill of abortion is their fate.

Abortion will continue because we did not “feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty,” “bind up the naked,” or “show kindness to strangers” and help economically disadvantaged people find and keep jobs. When the price of gasoline controls a man or woman’s personal wealth, when the price of gasoline controls the price of food at the grocery store and permeates every facet of our lives, and we fail to address this great megalomaniac evil that controls our economy and our legislation and politics, we fail our spiritual lives to admit that we are being controlled – not by God – but by mammon.

October 10, 2008 1:48 PM  
Blogger Jonathan Knox said...

And this will be the only response to that post.

October 11, 2008 2:17 AM  

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